Posts by True North

9

Accomplishes are good, accomplishments shared are better

by joelbear in

jw
friends

i just went to pick up my diploma from school.

as i opened the envelope and saw my name there i couldn't hold back the tears.

i was overcome with emotion.

True North

Congratulations Joel; that's wonderful!

I was attending a university myself when I got sucked into the WT org. and proceeded to drop out of it in order to learn the joys of janitorial work. Many years later -- after I had left JW-dom behind -- I finally managed to get my Bachelor's degree as well (even though it was something I just did for employment reasons and not, as had been my original goal, to pursue a field of study/research I was actually interested in).

Will I find a job in Market Research or Advertising, both of which I have a passion for.

Have you ever read any books by David Ogilvy, the founder of the advertising agency Ogilvy & Mather? I don't have anything to do with advertising myself, but I did read his Confessions of an Advertising Man and Ogilvy on Advertising and thoroughly enjoyed them. And BTW, as I recall, Ogilvy found huge success in the advertising business relatively late in life after having previously "knocked about" in a potpourri of other types of work.

29

New Gal saying hi to everyone

by betty boop in

jw
friends

ive been logging on to the website for awhile but have only been reading.today ive decided to extend my hello to all of you and to thank you for helping me out in confirming a decison i shouldve made years ago.

i left the j-dubs last august (by fading) and i feel so much happier in my life.

i can say bless you when someone sneezes, i can go to a birthday party, put a x-mas tree up, and have sex guilt free .

True North

Hi Betty. I've always loved your cartoons. Welcome to the forum.

does anyone ever think it might be the tribulation and we're all wrong? silly me i know but those ridiculous thoughts sometimes still torture me.

These sort of "ridiculous thoughts" that ex-JWs may experience are the result of having been conditioned and indoctrinated by a high-control group. You can expect to experience such thoughts and anxieties periodically, though with decreasing frequency as time goes on. It should be helpful to you to recognize that this sort of thing is not unique to ex-JWs but is commonly experienced by former members of any religious cult or cult-like group. They have their own conditioned, lingering tribulation, Armageddon, etc. type fears. The trick is to recognize these thoughts for what they are if they occur. Just observe them almost as a third party would, sort of like saying to yourself, "Oh, there's one of those conditioned thoughts again. Isn't that interesting. What prompted that?"

Another help is to find out what former members of other high-control groups have gone through (and what present members are going through). You'll find that the Watchtower Society is not so unique after all in the kinds of claims it makes and how it controls its members. Steve Hassan, a former Moonie who is now a professional counselor, has written a couple of good books on the subject: Combatting Cult Mind Control and Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves. When first reading of what other people believed or were afraid of, you may think, "Oh, that's silly. How could anyone believe or be afraid of something like that." Then on reflection, you can start to view your own former beliefs and fears in the same light. This can be quite liberating.

9

Strangers to the Past. Would You Agree.

by Blueblades in

jw
friends

.

would you agree that whether in the dark ages, the middle ages, the age of discovery, the industrial age, the atomic age, the space age, the events of the day are essentially repetitions, variations, elaborations or extensions of the past, and life on earth, the overall course of humankind, human nature itself and mankind's relationships with one another continue very much the same as they were in the past.. would you agree that what appears momentous, even stupendous, to one generation is not to the next, and rarely figures in the daily thoughts or concerns of people living in such later times.. would you agree that the past fades from human thoughts that are immersed in the present and grappling with the future.. would you agree that the only genuinely complete change would only take place if, and this is a big "if",some power beyond humankind, "god" if you will, actually someone who is not a stranger to the past and is a competent judge of the present changes the cycle of human history for the betterment of all mankind.. otherwise our children's children will follow in our footsteps as to being strangers to the past.and we will also fade into the past as forgotten by those immersed in the present and grappling with the future.. as many have posted here, we are stuck in the present, discussing recent past events, and trying to make sense out of what the future holds for us.. i don't know why i am posting this except that my mind is restless and spinning going nowhere fast.does this happen to you?has 30 something years in the watchtower brought me to this point in my life?i am in a holding pattern trying so hard to flush 30 years out of my mind.. blueblades.

.

True North

Would you agree that whether in the Dark Ages, the Middle Ages, the Age of Discovery, the Industrial Age, the Atomic Age, the Space Age, the events of the day are essentially repetitions, variations, elaborations or extensions of the past, and life on earth, the overall course of humankind, human nature itself and mankind's relationships with one another continue very much the same as they were in the past.

No, I don't agree with that. I think that the fruits of the scientific, industrial, and liberal revolutions have made life for people in many lands hugely different than they were before. I, for one, am very grateful for this and would be horrified at the thought have having to live either in some ancient "Dark Age" or in some contemporary illiberal, poverty-stricken nation that has not enjoyed the fruits of that "trinity" of revolutions.

Civilization, as we think of it, has been around for less than 10,000 years. That is a drop in the bucket of the age of the universe. We've come so far in this relatively short time -- who knows what waits ahead if we can avoid having the fruits of science and technology so misused as to bring on a new dark age.

Would you agree that the past fades from human thoughts that are immersed in the present and grappling with the future.

That's probably true for most people but certainly not for all. Leolaia certainly seems no stranger to the past and I try not to be either. And since the invention of movable type and the printing press down to all our more recently introduced communication and storage media (film, television, Internet, et al.) we have the means to "remember" the past better than any previous civilization. True, only a minority take advantage of this, but it's still a huge number of people. Goodness, we even have a "History Channel" on television, a History Book Club, and any number of history magazines populating the magazine racks at Borders and Barnes & Noble.

10

Could there ever be another "hostile takeover" of the WT Society?

by True North in

jw
friends

i've read that back in the day, rutherford worked the legal system to take over the wt society in opposition to russell's final instructions.

could this sort of thing ever happen again?

another recent thread on this forum spoke of there currently being factions within the organization that take opposing views of many things.

True North

I do think a power struggle is still possible; it happened thirty years ago, with the transition from a monarchical presidency to the GB. But I think that it would be a political/ideological struggle, not a legal one.

It seems to me that in the event of a power struggle, whoever would end up in control of the property -- including the Awake, Watchtower, and Jehovah's Witnesses "brand names" -- would be the winner and that control of property is a legal matter.

I also have wondered if actively opposing factions may become an increasing possibility as the "annointed" dwindle in numbers. Perhaps there might develop a split between "great crowd" members of the hierarchy and any "professed annointed" who try to remain in control -- especially if such ones are viewed with suspicion for being younger and more recently professing. What might be the result, I wonder, if "new light" were to be published or otherwise promulgated by some "great crowd" faction suggesting that the 144,000 might be a symbolic number after all?

Another possible source of conflict might be between liberalizing pragmatists -- who view change as necessary for the prosperity if not outright survival of the organization -- and hard-liners. (The current existence of factions of this type was discussed recently in another thread.) In any such contest for control, legal issues and the associated marshalling of votes could well be the deciding factors.

10

Could there ever be another "hostile takeover" of the WT Society?

by True North in

jw
friends

i've read that back in the day, rutherford worked the legal system to take over the wt society in opposition to russell's final instructions.

could this sort of thing ever happen again?

another recent thread on this forum spoke of there currently being factions within the organization that take opposing views of many things.

True North

I've read that back in the day, Rutherford worked the legal system to take over the WT Society in opposition to Russell's final instructions. Could this sort of thing ever happen again? Another recent thread on this forum spoke of there currently being factions within the organization that take opposing views of many things. Could some law-savvy faction ever engineer matters to take over and oust some or all of the existing power structure? Where exactly does final control over WT assets (property, cash, investments) reside, who and how many have the controlling votes, and how do they get the right to vote? Does anyone know?

28

What happens when Bethelites are too old, infirm, or disturbed to work?

by True North in

jw
friends

in barbara grizzuti harrison's book visions of glory: a history and a memory of jehovah?s witnesses (which is online at http://www.exjws.net/vg.htm -- i highly recommend it) there's an account of heartlessness at bethel that i found particularly troubling.

it's in "chapter iv.

accumulating wealth while the world refuses to die" (http://www.exjws.net/vg4.htm) and is as follows:.

True North

In Barbara Grizzuti Harrison's book Visions of Glory: A History and a Memory of Jehovah?s Witnesses (which is online at http://www.exjws.net/vg.htm -- I highly recommend it) there's an account of heartlessness at Bethel that I found particularly troubling. It's in "Chapter IV. Accumulating Wealth While the World Refuses to Die" (http://www.exjws.net/vg4.htm) and is as follows:

"When I lived at Bethel, I saw, or heard of, these failures of charity....An old man, who had been at Bethel for thirty years, grew senile. His senility took the form of his muttering obscenities at the dining-room table. He was given two "warnings,? which his hardened arteries obviously couldn't assimilate, and then ordered to leave. He had no resources, financial or emotional. He was last seen begging in downtown Brooklyn."

This account and other, related accounts I've read, make me wonder: what is WT policy towards Bethelites who become too old, infirm, or disturbed to work? I'm sure that the GB members are fully taken care of, but what of the rank and file? Are there any sort of retirement arrangements? How about health insurance?

Also, what about Bethelites injured on the job? Are they covered by any sort of Workmen's Compensation insurance? Or is there some sort of "opt out" provision for religious organizations?

Finally, do you think there are many older Bethelites who feel held hostage, that they must keep their doubts or disenchantments to themselves rather than face being turned out on the street without food, shelter, or medical care?

34

Did you ever actually make a JW convert from the door-to-door work?

by True North in

jw
friends

in all the years i went door to door as a jw, i never once had a study who went all the way to baptism.

in the thirty years i've know my wife -- who has been a jw all this time -- she has never made a single convert from going door to door either.

is this true of others on this forum?

True North

If someone spends twenty or thirty years in the door-to-door work without ever making a convert, then maybe that wasn't a very good use of their time. Perhaps their time would have been better spent in other ways that were more in tune with their personalities, natural gifts, and abilities. If they had spent that time helping the aged, infirm, or poor, maybe the love shown would have helped to make the JW congregations happier places to be, which in turn would give a powerful informal "witness" to those on the outside. This puts me in mind of Ephesians 4:11, which says "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers..." Maybe that applies here?

31

Elder Gives Talk About "Unbelievers" & "Unbeliever" Calls Him An "Asshole"

by minimus in

jw
friends

the husband of a sister attended the public talk and the visiting elder came down hard on "unbelievers" and "worldly" people.

he spoke about how miserable it is for faithful sisters to be married to such "worldly unbelievers" because they cannot share the same spiritual goals.

this man recently had started to attend some meetings because his wife pretty much begged him to.

True North

Back in the day, I heard or read -- don't recall which -- kids with JW mothers and non-JW fathers being referred to as "fatherless children". Do they still call them that?

34

Did you ever actually make a JW convert from the door-to-door work?

by True North in

jw
friends

in all the years i went door to door as a jw, i never once had a study who went all the way to baptism.

in the thirty years i've know my wife -- who has been a jw all this time -- she has never made a single convert from going door to door either.

is this true of others on this forum?

True North

In all the years I went door to door as a JW, I never once had a study who went all the way to baptism. In the thirty years I've know my wife -- who has been a JW all this time -- she has never made a single convert from going door to door either. Is this true of others on this forum? How many JWs actually do make converts by going door to door?

6

what is the fate of those who aren't preached to before Armageddon?

by True North in

recently i spoke with someone who says they were told that current jw teaching about those who aren't preached to before armageddon (in china, india, etc.

) is that such ones will be allowed a "second chance" in the "new order" (or "new system" or whatever it's called these days).

in reply, i said i found it unlikely that this would be their teaching and that if so it would mean that even from a jw perspective, people would be better off if they were never preached to.

True North

Recently I spoke with someone who says they were told that current JW teaching about those who aren't preached to before Armageddon (in China, India, etc.) is that such ones will be allowed a "second chance" in the "new order" (or "new system" or whatever it's called these days). In reply, I said I found it unlikely that this would be their teaching and that if so it would mean that even from a JW perspective, people would be better off if they were never preached to.

So how about it? Does anyone know what the current teaching is about this? Anyone have any recent WT quotes about this? Is this maybe a case of trying to put a more appealing public front on an unattractive doctrine, perhaps saying something like "While the Bible gives no guarantees for such ones, we trust in Jehovah to do what's loving and just" thus letting the listener assume a more conscionable interpretation than what JW doctrine really teaches?